najpoznatiji homoseksualci u povijesti

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Gost
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Odgovor na Re: najpoznatiji homoseksualci u povijesti 03-20-2006 17:05 | Zaključano
koliko ja znam Leonardo nije bio homoseksualac u pravom smislu rijeci, on je vise bio akeskualac, poznato je da se gnusao tjelesne ljubavi... vjerojatno je zbok toga izrastao stereotip o njemu kao homoseksualcu... a za Grke se nemoze bas govorit o homoseksualizmu kao takvom... tako da kad stavis da su Sokrat i Platon bili homo ili biseksualci, po tadasnjim stavovima bili su samo "normalni". mislim da je pogresno njih svrstavat. e moderatorica ima pravo, ako cemo stavljat Montgomerya Clifta i Micka Jaggera i Marlona Branda onda cemo stavljat i Dorijana Manzina ili kako se vec zove. za pola tih ljudi se samo nagadja da su bili pederi, u principu u povijesti cim neko nije imao dijete odma je proglasen nepodobnim. Louis XIII je eto imao srece pa je samo proglasen neplodnim :-)
autonomo
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Odgovor na Re: najpoznatiji homoseksualci u povijesti 03-21-2006 1:11 | Zaključano
Samo da kazem da u Rimu nije bilo pederluka koliko u Grckoj.Katul vjerojatno spada u onih legendarnih "jedan od deset".U Grckoj je bilo zakonom dozvoljeno uz zenu imati i muskog ljubavnika,sto je vecina Grka i radila.Dok su u Rimu dobri carevi kao npr. August donosili zakonske odredbe protiv homoseksualaca(recimo placali su vece poreze) i daleko su tvrdnje da je to bilo opca pojava kao u Grckoj.Jos samo da recem da su za iskrivljenu sliku o nacinu zivota Rimskog naroda najvise krivi jeftini americki filmovi.
Gost
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Odgovor na Re: najpoznatiji homoseksualci u povijesti 03-22-2006 3:47 | Zaključano
Odakle ti podatak da je većina Grka imali ljubavnika?
Gost
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Odgovor na Re: najpoznatiji homoseksualci u povijesti 03-22-2006 11:44 | Zaključano
> Samo da kazem da u Rimu nije bilo pederluka koliko u > Grckoj.Katul vjerojatno spada u onih legendarnih > "jedan od deset".U Grckoj je bilo zakonom dozvoljeno > uz zenu imati i muskog ljubavnika,sto je vecina Grka > i radila.Dok su u Rimu dobri carevi kao npr. August > donosili zakonske odredbe protiv > homoseksualaca(recimo placali su vece poreze) i > daleko su tvrdnje da je to bilo opca pojava kao u > Grckoj.[b]Jos samo da recem da su za iskrivljenu sliku o > nacinu zivota Rimskog naroda najvise krivi jeftini > americki filmovi.[/b] Točno tako, iako je određeni dio elite u samom Rimu "imitirao" grčke običaje... No obični plebs u italiji je bio pobožan i jako konzervativan, sam August je predstavljao te vrijednosti.
autonomo
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Odgovor na Re: najpoznatiji homoseksualci u povijesti 03-22-2006 22:59 | Zaključano
Procitao sam na vise mjesta.Muskarci su u Grckoj imali posebne zabave na kojima nisu mogle biti zene i to je bila opca pojava.Pa pogledaj samo u umjetnosti grcku opsjednutost golim muskim tijelom.Kad gledas ukupnu grcku kulturu neke stvari jednostavno odskacu.
Gost
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Odgovor na Re: najpoznatiji homoseksualci u povijesti 03-23-2006 10:00 | Zaključano
> koliko ja znam Leonardo nije bio homoseksualac u > pravom smislu rijeci, on je vise bio akeskualac, > poznato je da se gnusao tjelesne ljubavi... > vjerojatno je zbok toga izrastao stereotip o njemu > kao homoseksualcu... Većina modernih kritičara i biografa će ga svrstati u homoseksualce , a aseksualcem ga je proglasio Freud ;)... kako je svoj privatni život krio od javnosti možemo samo nagađati...iako ja osobno mislim da je bio ;) evo jedan zanimljiv tekst o Leonardovom životu : In 1476, he was accused anonymously, along with three other men, of sodomy with a 17 year-old model, Jacopo Saltarelli, who was a notorious male prostitute. After two months in jail, he was acquitted because no witnesses stepped forward. For some time afterwards, Leonardo and the others were kept under observation by Florence's Officers of the Night - a kind of Renaissance vice squad, charged with suppressing the practice of sodomy, which a majority of male Florentines engaged in, as shown by surviving legal records of the Podestá and the Officers of the Night. Modern critics contend that Leonardo's love of boys was well-known even in the sixteenth century. Rocke reports that in a fictional dialogue on l'amore masculino (male love) written by the contemporary art critic and theorist Gian Paolo Lomazzo, Leonardo appears as one of the protagonists and declares, "Know that male love is exclusively the product of virtue which, joining men together with the diverse affections of friendship, makes it so that from a tender age they would enter into the manly one as more stalwart friends." In the dialogue, the interlocutor inquires of Leonardo about his relations with his assistant, Salai, "Did you play the game from behind which the Florentines love so much?" Leonardo kept his private life particularly secret, and there is no evidence that Leonardo was ever intimately involved with any woman, nor in a close friendship with one. He also surrounded himself with handsome young men throughout his life, and his art reflects an appreciation of androgynous beauty. It has, therefore, been assumed that he was a homosexual. One of his loves may have been Gian Giacomo Caprotti da Oreno (nicknamed Salai (Little Devil)). Gian entered Leonardo's household around 1488 at the age of 10, becoming his servant and assistant. In 1506, Leonardo met Count Francesco Melzi, the fifteen year old son of a Lombard aristocrat. Salai eventually accepted Melzi's continued presence and the three undertook various journeys throughout Italy. Though Salai was always introduced as Leonardo's "pupil", he never produced any work of artistic merit. Melzi, however, became his pupil and life companion. Leonardo had many other friends who are now figures renowned in their fields, or for their influence on history; these included Niccolň Machiavelli, Cesare Borgia and Franchinus Gaffurius. Disregarding the controversy of homosexuality, it is clear from the works of Leonardo and his early biographers, that he was a man of high integrity and very sensitive to moral issues. Hereby, it should be noted that Leonardo was a vegetarian at least a part of his life and often bought birds just to release them. He was also the respected judge on the matters of beauty and elegance, particularly in pageantry. Relationships Leonardo kept his private life particularly secret, going as far as writing his journals in code. He also claimed to have a distaste of physical relations: The act of procreation and anything that has any relation to it is so disgusting that human beings would soon die out if there were no pretty faces and sensuous dispositions, a comment later interpreted by Freud, in an analysis of the artist, as indicative of his "frigidity" (Gesammelte Werke bd VIII, 1909-1913). He concludes that Leonardo is driven by a homosexual libido, one that is sublimated in his scientific investigations. Indeed, Leonardo surrounded himself with handsome youths throughout his life, and allowed his art to reflect an appreciation of masculine beauty. His lasting and loving relationship with young men and lack of close relationships with women, together with surviving legal records and contemporary writings have led many modern historians to conclude that he had a strong erotic interest, one focused exclusively on males. The first known instance of his interest in youths occurred in 1476. While still living with Verrocchio, he was twice accused anonymously of sodomy with a 17 year-old model, Jacopo dąAndrea Saltarelli, a boy already known to the authorities for his sexual escapades with men. After two months in jail, he was acquitted because no witnesses stepped forward. For some time afterwards, Leonardo and the others were kept under observation by Florence's Officers of the Night - a Renaissance organisation charged with suppressing the practice of sodomy, as shown by surviving legal records of the Podesta and the Officers of the Night. Leonardo's alleged love of boys was a topic of discussion even in the sixteenth century. In "Il Libro dei Sogni " (The Book of Dreams) a fictional dialogue on l'amore masculino (male love) written by the contemporary art critic and theorist Gian Paolo Lomazzo, Leonardo appears as one of the protagonists and declares, "Know that male love is exclusively the product of virtue which, joining men together with the diverse affections of friendship, makes it so that from a tender age they would enter into the manly one as more stalwart friends." In the dialogue, the interlocutor inquires of Leonardo about his relations with his assistant, il Salaino, "Did you play the game from behind which the Florentines love so much?" Leonardo answers, "And how many times! Keep in mind that he was a beautiful young man, especially at about fifteen." Gian Giacomo Caprotti da Oreno, nicknamed il Salaino ("The Little Unclean One" i.e., the devil), was described by Vasari as "a graceful and beautiful youth with fine curly hair, in which Leonardo greatly delighted." Il Salaino entered Leonardo's household in 1490 at the age of 10. The relationship was not an easy one. A year later Leonardo made a list of the boyąs misdemeanors, calling him "a thief, a liar, stubborn, and a glutton." The "Little Devil" had made off with money and valuables on at least five occasions, and spent a fortune on apparel, among which twenty four pairs of shoes. Nevertheless, il Salaino remained his companion, servant and assistant for the next thirty years, and Leonardo's notebooks during their early years contain pictures of a handsome, curly-haired adolescent. Il Salaino's name also appears (crossed out) on the back of an erotic drawing (ca. 1513) by the artist, The Incarnate Angel, at one time in the collection of Queen Victoria. It is seen as a humorous and revealing take on his major work, St. John the Baptist, also a work and a theme imbued with homoerotic overtones by a number of art critics such as Martin Kemp and James Saslow (Saslow, 1986, passim). Another erotic work, found on the verso of a foglio in the Atlantic Codex, depicts il Salaino's behind, towards which march several penises on two legs (Augusto Marinoni, in "Io Leonardo", Mondadori, Milano 1974, pp.288, 310). Some of Leonardo's other works on erotic topics, his drawings of heterosexual human sexual intercourse, were destroyed by a priest who found them after his death. In 1506, Leonardo met Count Francesco Melzi, the 15 year old son of a Lombard aristocrat. Melzi himself, in a letter, described Leonardo's feelings towards him as a sviscerato et ardentissimo amore ("a passionate and most fiery love"). (Crompton, p.269) Salai eventually accepted Melzi's continued presence and the three undertook journeys throughout Italy. Though Salai was always introduced as Leonardo's "pupil", he never produced any work of artistic merit. Melzi, however, became Leonardo's pupil and life companion, and is considered to have been his favorite student.
Odgovor na Re: najpoznatiji homoseksualci u povijesti 03-23-2006 10:10 | Zaključano
> Procitao sam na vise mjesta.Muskarci su u Grckoj > imali posebne zabave na kojima nisu mogle biti zene i > to je bila opca pojava.Pa pogledaj samo u umjetnosti > grcku opsjednutost golim muskim tijelom.Kad gledas > ukupnu grcku kulturu neke stvari jednostavno odskacu. Hm. Opsjednutost muškim tijelom može, ali i ne mora implicirati homoseksualnost. ;) Virni malo u moj komentar o navodnoj Michelangelovoj homoseksualnost na 3. strani ove teme. :) (linkovi nisu funkcionirali, ali su ispravljeni u međuvremenu) Poruka je izmijenjena od: Boleyn
Gost
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Odgovor na Re: najpoznatiji homoseksualci u povijesti 03-23-2006 11:13 | Zaključano
> > Procitao sam na vise mjesta.Muskarci su u Grckoj > > imali posebne zabave na kojima nisu mogle biti zeni i > > to je bila opca pojava.Pa pogledaj samo u > umjetnosti > > grcku opsjednutost golim muskim tijelom.Kad gledas > > ukupnu grcku kulturu neke stvari jednostavno > odskacu. > > Hm. Opsjednutost muškim tijelom može, ali i ne mora > implicirati homoseksualnost. ;) Nije sad da su grci radili samo kipove golih muškaraca, isto tako i bezbroj kipova golih žena... kad je autonomo več stavio Augusta iz Prima Porte na svoj avtar, trebao bi samo pogledati koliko se u tom istom Vatikanskom Muzeju nalazi kipova božica, muza, ...
autonomo
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Odgovor na Re: najpoznatiji homoseksualci u povijesti 03-23-2006 19:55 | Zaključano
U citavoj grckoj umjetnosti ocuvano je samo jedan do dva kipa zenskog golog tijela.U Vatikanskom muzeju ima božica i muza ali su to djela rimske i kasnijih umjetnosti.Samo da ne bude zabune,govorim o [u]golim[/u] zenskim tijelima.U Grckoj imamo npr. Karijatide koje su obucene ali sveukupni broj grckih kipova zena opcenito je puno manji od kipova golih muskaraca.
Gost
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Odgovor na Re: najpoznatiji homoseksualci u povijesti 02-23-2007 11:08 | Zaključano
[b]S.P.D. Šta je ono s Beethovenom, da je bio pedofil i homosexualac ? ( ne znam za to , netko je to maloprije spomenio... ) Da, i Chopin definitivno nije bio homo. Inače su mi Beethoven i Chopin najdraži skladatelji... Za Čajkovskog se zna da je bio homić LOL... Katul je uvijek imao zanimljive pjesme... Čula sam za C.I.Caesara da su ga zvali 'muškarcem svih žena i ženom svih muškaraca' .. slažem se da Rimljani nisu bili toliko skloni homoseksualizmu kao Grci, ali su definitivo i oni bili perverzni... ( penis bonus, pax in domus... lol ;) eto... toliko ;) post scriptum - daj prestanite s onim da su Talijani = Rimljani... to je jedan velik non sens... po toj teoriji pola hrvatskih sela koja su rimskog podrijetla bila bi naseljena Rimljanima... sine ira et studio - to i nije baš prihvatljivo[/b]
subrino
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Odgovor na Re: najpoznatiji homoseksualci u povijesti 02-25-2007 21:02 | Zaključano
Zanimljiva tema.
Gost
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Odgovor na Re: najpoznatiji homoseksualci u povijesti 03-04-2007 9:43 | Zaključano
ali su komadi . venera milonska je sasvim ok iako je afrodita više prema standardima ovog stoljeća.
Gost
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Odgovor na Re: najpoznatiji homoseksualci u povijesti 03-04-2007 11:58 | Zaključano
Koliko znam Sokrat, Gaj Julije Cezar ( barem je bio u takvom odnosu ), Sapfa, Aleksandar Makedonski...
Gost
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Odgovor na Re: najpoznatiji homoseksualci u povijesti 04-03-2007 18:07 | Zaključano
ako su bili veliki ljudi nije važno jesu li bili homoseksualci.
ri_genije
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Odgovor na Re: najpoznatiji homoseksualci u povijesti 04-03-2007 22:06 | Zaključano
> ako su bili veliki ljudi nije važno jesu li bili > homoseksualci. Potcrtavam
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