Postoji li Bog...?

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sajk88
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Postoji li Bog...? Poslano: 08-14-2012 2:45

Otvorio sam temu da bi se mogla provesti jedna mirna debata između teista i ateista o postojanju Boga.

Ja sam ateist i ne vjerujem u postojanje Boga zbog toga što smatram da ne postoje valjani dokazi za postojanje istog.

Molio bi teiste da ponude neke argumente za postojanje Boga da bi ova debata mogla započeti, i pritom naglase o kojem se Bogu radi.

Također molim da se svi susdrže glupih odgovora kao npr. slažem se, glup si što tako nešto uopće pitaš itd.

 

Let the debate begin :)

mlohawa_choona
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Odgovor na Re: Postoji li Bog...? 08-14-2012 3:26

uvjet ljudske slobode je da ne zna postoji li Bog. da bi taj uvjet bio ispunjen Boga se ne može materijalno dokazati. tako da C/P: "ne vjerujem u postojanje Boga zbog toga što smatram da ne postoje valjani dokazi za postojanje istog." nije valjani razlog za nevjerovanje (jer da postoje "valjani dokazi" onda to ne bi bilo nevjerovanje nego negiranje/ignoriranje tih "valjanih dokaza").

 

it´s my right to be wrong ...

Mad_Vlad
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Odgovor na Re: Postoji li Bog...? 08-14-2012 4:18

 

Understanding God

The Creator of space and time is unique from all existence.

by Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan

God is defined as the Creator of the universe, as the opening verse of the Torah states, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" (Genesis 1:1). God likewise said, "I am God, I make all things" (Isaiah 44:24).

As Creator of the universe, God must be distinct from the world. Judaism therefore rejects the philosophy of pantheism.

As Creator of the universe, God's existence cannot depend on any of His handiwork. Judaism therefore rejects any definition of God as an abstract ethical force or social convention.

As Creator of all, God is on a higher plane than His handiwork. He is therefore referred to as the Supreme Being.

As Creator, God is absolutely different from anything else that exists. He is therefore totally unknowable.

Although God himself is unknowable, we can, to some degree, understand His relationship to the universe. In this manner, we speak of God through His "attributes of action." Also, although we cannot know what God is, we can learn much by realizing what He is not. In this sense, we speak of God using "negative attributes."

Absolute Unity

It is a foundation of our faith to believe that God is One and that He is a most perfect and absolute Unity.

It is written, "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one" (Deut. 6:4). This is a positive commandment to believe in God's unity. This commandment depends on thought and can be fulfilled at any time.

Although the universe contains many galaxies, each consisting of innumerable stars and planets, there is one God who is Author and Creator of them all. It is absolutely impossible to conceive of more than one Absolute Being.

Although there may be many other universes, both physical and spiritual, God is One over all. It is thus written, "Your kingdom is a kingdom of all worlds" (Psalms 145:13).

Judaism emphatically rejects any concept of plurality with respect to God.

Judaism emphatically rejects any concept of plurality with respect to God. It therefore rejects the Christian concept of the trinity, in which God is depicted as three persons in one, corresponding to His manifestation in creation, redemption and revelation.

Since any additional quality would add an element of plurality to God's essence, we conceive of Him as being absolutely simple. His simple essence, however, implies every attribute with which He created and rules His universe.

As Creator, God's power in His universe is unlimited. We therefore speak of God as being omnipotent, and refer to Him in our prayer as "King of the universe.' It is likewise written, "All that God wishes, he does, in heaven and earth, in the seas and all the deeps" (Psalms 135:6).

We do not, however, ascribe to God the power of doing that which is categorically impossible, such as duplicating, annihilating, corporifying, or changing Himself. Judaism therefore rejects the possibility that God could have ever assumed human form.

Since God is the Creator of all matter, it is obvious that He does not consist of matter.

Because of God's antithesis to all material attributes, He is called Pure and Holy.

God's Hands and Eyes

As Creator of all things, God is also the Creator of space and time. He therefore does not exist in space and time.

It is therefore taught that God is given the appellation "Place," Makom in Hebrew. The universe of space and time is a creation of God, and does not contain Him.

The human mind can only deal with physical concepts, and it is therefore virtually impossible for it to picture any existence outside of space and time. This is but another reason that God's Essence is unknowable.

Body, shape and form are all attributes of space. It is therefore obvious that God has neither body, shape nor form.

It is a foundation of our faith to believe that God is absolutely incorporeal. The Torah therefore states, "Take good heed of yourselves, for you saw no manner of form on that day that God spoke to you at Horeb." (Deut. 4:15).

God is therefore not to be compared to any of His creatures, even to the highest angels. The prophet thus declared, "To whom will you then liken God? To what likeness will you compare Him?" (Isaiah 40:18). It is likewise written, "There is none like You, O God" (Jeremiah 10:6). The Psalmist similarly said, "There are none like You among the powers (angels), O God, and there are no words like Yours" (Psalms 86:8).

The Torah uses familiar terms to allegorically to express God's relation to His creation.

In many places, the Torah speaks of God as though He had a human body, using anthropomorphisms such as, "the hand of God" (Exodus 9:15), and "the eyes of God" (Deut. 11:12). In doing so, the Torah is in no way asserting that God has a body, shape or form. Rather, it borrows terms from God's creatures allegorically to express His relation to His creation.

Similarly, when the Torah states that God created man in His image (Genesis 1:27), it by no means implies that God looks like man. What it means is that man partakes of the same attributes that God uses when He interacts with His world. It also implies that God gave man the ability to use the same logic with which He created the universe.

Moses asked God, "Let me behold Your Glory" (Exodus 33:18). In making this request, he did not actually wish to see God, since that would be impossible. In an allegorical manner, he was merely requesting that God grant him a prophetic comprehension of His greatness. God replied that this is impossible for any living creature, saying, "You cannot see My Face, for man cannot see Me and live" (Exodus 33:20). He did allow Moses the greatest comprehension of God ever granted to any human being, but even this was not a perfect understanding. This is what God meant when He allegorically told Moses, "You shall see My back, but My Face shall not be seen" (Exodus 33:23). The same was true of the other "visions" of God experienced by the prophets.

When the Torah speaks of people hearing God's "voice," it usually refers to a prophetic voice within the individual's mind. At other times, God might actually create sound waves to convey His message...

Time and Space

God is spoken of as being "eternal," that is, as existing outside the realm of time. Time as such does not apply to God Himself, only to His creation. God therefore has neither beginning, end, nor age, since these concepts would imply existence within a framework of time.

God Himself is therefore absolutely unchangeable and unchanging. He thus said, "I am God, I do not change" (Malachi 3:6).

As Creator of time, God can make use of it without becoming involved in it.

As Creator of time, God can make use of it without becoming involved in it. He can therefore cause change in the world without being changed Himself. God is thus called the "unmoved Mover."

There are statements in the Torah that may seem to contradict this. Thus, the Torah appears to ascribe emotions such as joy and anger to God. But here too, it is merely speaking of God's interaction with man. We perceive God's actions, and ascribe to Him the same emotions that we ourselves would feel if we were performing a similar act. Thus, for example, when God punishes, we say that He is "angry." None of this, however, is meant to imply any change in God Himself.

Even the creation of the universe did not change God in any way. Similarly, it did not involve any change of God's mind. It cannot be said that at a particular moment He suddenly decided to create a world. A statement such as this has no meaning, since time, and hence, the very concept of change, were among the things created by God. Therefore, both before and after creation, God was absolutely the same.

Unknowable Yet Accessible

Creation therefore did not fill any need in God's being. God is inherently perfect, and does not have any need for the universe.

In absolutely no way can it be said that God was compelled to create the world. Hence, creation was nothing less than an act of absolute altruism on the part of God.

God is called "living" because He performs acts that are normally ascribed to living things.

Our understanding of God's relationship to the world is twofold, namely, that He is both immanent and transcendental. Thus, He both fills and encompasses all creation. This duality, however, is only due to our imperfect understanding of God, since He Himself is the most absolute Unity.

This twofold concept is expressed in the song of the angels. They sing, "Holy, holy, holy is God of Hosts, the whole world is filed with His Glory" (Isaiah 6:3). This indicates that God is immanent, filling all creation. However, they also sing, "Blessed is God's Glory from His place" (Ezekiel 3:12). Here they are speaking of god in His transcendental sense, where even the highest angels cannot comprehend His "place."

This is also expressed in the Shema, which states, "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One" (Deut. 6:4). Before declaring that God is an unknowable transcendental Unity, we declare that He is "our Lord" -- accessible to us at all times. Similarly, in every blessing, before addressing God as the transcendental "King of the universe," we also call Him "our Lord." In the prayer, "Our Father, our King" (Avinu Malkenu), we likewise liken God to both an immanent Father and a transcendental King.

God's immanence implies that there is no place in all creation that is devoid of His being. He is therefore spoken of as being omnipresent. The Torah thus says, "All the earth is filled with God's Glory" (Numbers 14:21). It is likewise written, "His Glory is in heaven and earth" (Psalms 148:13).

In a number of places, the torah speaks of God as being in a certain place at a given time. This does not mean that God is in that place and not elsewhere. Rather, it means that God wishes to bestow special honor and attention to that place, or, alternatively, that His action is particularly visible there. Thus, God was said to "dwell" in the Holy Temple because He bestowed special honor and attention to this edifice. God was said to "lead" the Israelites at the Exodus because His activities were particularly visible in relation to them.

Dependent on God

Nothing can exist unless God wills it to exist. If God were to stop willing anything's existence, it would instantaneously cease to exist. God's will must therefore permeate all creation. But since God is an absolute Unity, His will must be identical with His essence. Since God's will must fill all creation, the same must also be true of His Essence.

The existence of all creation thus continuously depends on God's will and creative power. If this power were removed from creation for even an instant, all things would instantly cease to exist. It is thus written, "You have made the heaven… the earth and all that is on it… and You give life to them all" (Nehemiah 9:6). God constantly gives "Life Force" and existence to all things. In the morning prayers, we likewise say, "In His goodness, He daily renews the act of creation."

Although God's presence fills all creation, His existence is absolutely undetectable. The prophet therefore said to God, "Certainly, You are a God who hides Himself" (Isaiah 45:15). If God would reveal his true Glory, all creation would be nullified before it.

Furthermore, God cannot be seen because there is no place empty of Him. The reason is very much like the reason that the air cannot be seen; it is an integral part of our environment, and this is all the more true of God. The reason we cannot see God is not because He is too transcendental, but because He is too immanent. The only time we are aware of the air is when the wind blows. Similarly, we are only aware of God when He acts to manifest His presence. This is why the same word, ruach, denotes both wind and spirit.

Secrets of the Heart

It is a foundation of our faith to believe that God knows all our deeds as well as everything else that occurs in the universe.

God is therefore spoken of as being omniscient. He fills all creation and gives it existence, and therefore, He is aware of all that takes place in it. God thus said, "Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I will not see him?… Do I then not fill heaven and earth?" (Jeremiah 23:24). It is likewise written, "God's eyes are in every place, beholding the evil and the good" (Proverbs 15:3).

God knows man's thoughts, as it is written, "God probes every heart and perceives every urge of thought" (1-Chronicles 28:9). It is likewise written, "[God] knows the secrets of the heart" (Psalms 44:21).

Since God exists outside of time, He knows the future exactly as He knows the past. This precise concept is expressed in His words to His prophet, "I call the generations from the beginning; I, God, am the First, and with the last I am the same" (Isaiah 41:4).

No matter how great the number of simultaneous events, it is nothing for God's infinite knowledge.

God's knowledge is identical with His infinite Essence, and it is therefore also infinite. It is thus written, "[God's] understanding is infinite" (Psalms 147:5). God can therefore know what is happening to every single atom in the universe at every given instant. No matter how great the number of simultaneous events, it is nothing compared to God's infinite knowledge.

Above and beyond all this, God is so high above us that it is utterly impossible to comprehend Him in any manner whatsoever. It is thus written, "Can you by searching find out God? Can you probe the Almighty to perfection?" (Job 11:7). God's Essence transcends our very powers of thought, as He told His prophet, "My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are My ways your ways" (Isaiah 48:17).

It is thus taught, "No thought can grasp Him at all." Just as an abstract thought cannot be grasped by the physical hand, so the essence of God cannot be grasped even by thought. Even the highest spiritual beings cannot comprehend God's true essence.

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Therefore, every name and every description that we may give to God can only apply to His relationship to His creation. Even the Tetragrammaton (YHVH) which is called God's "proper name" only denotes His highest emanation in creation. God Himself, however, is absolutely unknowable, unnamable, and innominate. Words do not exist that can describe Him or tell all His praises.

Although God is incomprehensible, we know Him through our traditions of the past and our hopes in the future. We know Him though our prayers for life, health and prosperity, as well as our hopes for mankind. In the Amidah recited three times each day, we address God and say, "Blessed are You, O Lord, our God and God of our fathers; God of Abraham, God of Isaac, and God of Jacob; Great, mighty and awesome God, Highest One, Giver of love and goodness, Master of all, who remembers the love of the fathers, and brings a redeemer to their children's children, for His name's sake, with love. King, Helper, Deliverer, and Shield." This prayer expresses our most basic feelings toward God.

tituska
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Odgovor na Re: Postoji li Bog...? 08-14-2012 7:21

sajk88:

 provesti jedna mirna debata između teista i ateista o postojanju Boga.

to će biti teško Big Smile

tituska
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Odgovor na Re: Postoji li Bog...? 08-14-2012 7:26

sajk88:

Otvorio sam temu da bi se mogla provesti jedna mirna debata između teista i ateista o postojanju Boga.

Ja sam ateist i ne vjerujem u postojanje Boga zbog toga što smatram da ne postoje valjani dokazi za postojanje istog.

Molio bi teiste da ponude neke argumente za postojanje Boga da bi ova debata mogla započeti, i pritom naglase o kojem se Bogu radi.

Također molim da se svi susdrže glupih odgovora kao npr. slažem se, glup si što tako nešto uopće pitaš itd.

 

Let the debate begin :)

Teisti ne mogu ponuditi argument koji neće biti osporen od strane ateista jer ateisti se vode dokazima, a teisti vjerom, kao što i sam kažeš da ne vjeruješ da postoji, znači da ne znaš nego ne vjeruješ

RobinUd
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Odgovor na Re: Postoji li Bog...? 08-14-2012 8:52

Ako je nekad bog i postojao, sigurno je uginuo.

U vrijeme, dok je ljudsko znanje o prirodnim zakonima bilo nula, "sve je bilo bog", od grmljavine, kise.... do izlaska i zalaska sunca. Tada se (na primjer) krscanski bog svaki dan mijesao u zivot svojih podanika. Sto aktivno, sto pasivno.

Kako je ljudsko saznanje o prirodnim zakonima raslo, tako je i bog gubio tlo opd nogama. Bog "stanuje" jos samo u primitivnim sredinama (vidi oldijeve izvore), i stanuje jos u nekim osobama, koje doduse zive u razvijenom svijetu, ali im na neki nacin tu bas nije mjesto.

Bog je uginuo. Ne pojavljuje se zadnjih 2000 godina. Meni ne nedostaje....

oldie
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Odgovor na Re: Postoji li Bog...? 08-14-2012 11:51

RobinUd:
Bog je uginuo

 

Big SmileYes

 

 

 

teodor.francic
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Odgovor na Re: Postoji li Bog...? 08-14-2012 13:19

oldie:

RobinUd:
Bog je uginuo

 

Big SmileYes

 

 

 

Bog postoji što god tko rekao.Zašto?Jer je prva definicija Boga, da je on uzrok svega postojanja.

Pošto mi postojimo, postoji i naš uzrok.Smo je pitanje što ili tko je to, to nije definirano.

Pozdrav

oldie
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Odgovor na Re: Postoji li Bog...? 08-14-2012 13:59

teodor.francic:

Bog postoji što god tko rekao.Zašto?Jer je prva definicija Boga, da je on uzrok svega postojanja.

Pošto mi postojimo, postoji i naš uzrok.Smo je pitanje što ili tko je to, to nije definirano.

pošto bog postoji, postoji i njegov uzrok...samo je pitanje što ili tko je to,to nije definirano.

 

sajk88
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Odgovor na Re: Postoji li Bog...? 08-14-2012 14:42

Po tebi je dokaz da Bog postoji to da je po definiciji on uzrok svega postojanja? To što je on po nečijoj definiciji nešto nije stvarno nikakav dokaz da on zapravo postoji. Joj.

Da, naš uzrok je evolucija po prirodnoj selekciji.

melkior
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Odgovor na Re: Postoji li Bog...? 08-14-2012 14:45

oldie:
pošto bog postoji, postoji i njegov uzrok...samo je pitanje što ili tko je to,to nije definirano.

 

Definicija Boga jest da je On neuzrokovani uzrok, nepokrenuti Pokretač. Ne možemo razgovarati o uzrokovanju neuzrokovanog uzroka, dakle o samoj prirodi Boga kao nekoga tko je s one strane čitavog postojanja, jer je to izvan granica i mogućnosti ljudskog shvaćanja. Možemo razgovarati o tome zašto bi On uopće nešto pokrenuo i uzrokovao, ako jest. Ako nije, onda je i čitava rasprava besmislena.

melkior
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Odgovor na Re: Postoji li Bog...? 08-14-2012 14:45

Mad_Vlad:

 

Understanding God

The Creator of space and time is unique from all existence.

by Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan

God is defined as the Creator of the universe, as the opening verse of the Torah states, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" (Genesis 1:1). God likewise said, "I am God, I make all things" (Isaiah 44:24).

As Creator of the universe, God must be distinct from the world. Judaism therefore rejects the philosophy of pantheism.

As Creator of the universe, God's existence cannot depend on any of His handiwork. Judaism therefore rejects any definition of God as an abstract ethical force or social convention.

As Creator of all, God is on a higher plane than His handiwork. He is therefore referred to as the Supreme Being.

As Creator, God is absolutely different from anything else that exists. He is therefore totally unknowable.

Although God himself is unknowable, we can, to some degree, understand His relationship to the universe. In this manner, we speak of God through His "attributes of action." Also, although we cannot know what God is, we can learn much by realizing what He is not. In this sense, we speak of God using "negative attributes."

Absolute Unity

It is a foundation of our faith to believe that God is One and that He is a most perfect and absolute Unity.

It is written, "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one" (Deut. 6:4). This is a positive commandment to believe in God's unity. This commandment depends on thought and can be fulfilled at any time.

Although the universe contains many galaxies, each consisting of innumerable stars and planets, there is one God who is Author and Creator of them all. It is absolutely impossible to conceive of more than one Absolute Being.

Although there may be many other universes, both physical and spiritual, God is One over all. It is thus written, "Your kingdom is a kingdom of all worlds" (Psalms 145:13).

Judaism emphatically rejects any concept of plurality with respect to God.

Judaism emphatically rejects any concept of plurality with respect to God. It therefore rejects the Christian concept of the trinity, in which God is depicted as three persons in one, corresponding to His manifestation in creation, redemption and revelation.

Since any additional quality would add an element of plurality to God's essence, we conceive of Him as being absolutely simple. His simple essence, however, implies every attribute with which He created and rules His universe.

As Creator, God's power in His universe is unlimited. We therefore speak of God as being omnipotent, and refer to Him in our prayer as "King of the universe.' It is likewise written, "All that God wishes, he does, in heaven and earth, in the seas and all the deeps" (Psalms 135:6).

We do not, however, ascribe to God the power of doing that which is categorically impossible, such as duplicating, annihilating, corporifying, or changing Himself. Judaism therefore rejects the possibility that God could have ever assumed human form.

Since God is the Creator of all matter, it is obvious that He does not consist of matter.

Because of God's antithesis to all material attributes, He is called Pure and Holy.

God's Hands and Eyes

As Creator of all things, God is also the Creator of space and time. He therefore does not exist in space and time.

It is therefore taught that God is given the appellation "Place," Makom in Hebrew. The universe of space and time is a creation of God, and does not contain Him.

The human mind can only deal with physical concepts, and it is therefore virtually impossible for it to picture any existence outside of space and time. This is but another reason that God's Essence is unknowable.

Body, shape and form are all attributes of space. It is therefore obvious that God has neither body, shape nor form.

It is a foundation of our faith to believe that God is absolutely incorporeal. The Torah therefore states, "Take good heed of yourselves, for you saw no manner of form on that day that God spoke to you at Horeb." (Deut. 4:15).

God is therefore not to be compared to any of His creatures, even to the highest angels. The prophet thus declared, "To whom will you then liken God? To what likeness will you compare Him?" (Isaiah 40:18). It is likewise written, "There is none like You, O God" (Jeremiah 10:6). The Psalmist similarly said, "There are none like You among the powers (angels), O God, and there are no words like Yours" (Psalms 86:8).

The Torah uses familiar terms to allegorically to express God's relation to His creation.

In many places, the Torah speaks of God as though He had a human body, using anthropomorphisms such as, "the hand of God" (Exodus 9:15), and "the eyes of God" (Deut. 11:12). In doing so, the Torah is in no way asserting that God has a body, shape or form. Rather, it borrows terms from God's creatures allegorically to express His relation to His creation.

Similarly, when the Torah states that God created man in His image (Genesis 1:27), it by no means implies that God looks like man. What it means is that man partakes of the same attributes that God uses when He interacts with His world. It also implies that God gave man the ability to use the same logic with which He created the universe.

Moses asked God, "Let me behold Your Glory" (Exodus 33:18). In making this request, he did not actually wish to see God, since that would be impossible. In an allegorical manner, he was merely requesting that God grant him a prophetic comprehension of His greatness. God replied that this is impossible for any living creature, saying, "You cannot see My Face, for man cannot see Me and live" (Exodus 33:20). He did allow Moses the greatest comprehension of God ever granted to any human being, but even this was not a perfect understanding. This is what God meant when He allegorically told Moses, "You shall see My back, but My Face shall not be seen" (Exodus 33:23). The same was true of the other "visions" of God experienced by the prophets.

When the Torah speaks of people hearing God's "voice," it usually refers to a prophetic voice within the individual's mind. At other times, God might actually create sound waves to convey His message...

Time and Space

God is spoken of as being "eternal," that is, as existing outside the realm of time. Time as such does not apply to God Himself, only to His creation. God therefore has neither beginning, end, nor age, since these concepts would imply existence within a framework of time.

God Himself is therefore absolutely unchangeable and unchanging. He thus said, "I am God, I do not change" (Malachi 3:6).

As Creator of time, God can make use of it without becoming involved in it.

As Creator of time, God can make use of it without becoming involved in it. He can therefore cause change in the world without being changed Himself. God is thus called the "unmoved Mover."

There are statements in the Torah that may seem to contradict this. Thus, the Torah appears to ascribe emotions such as joy and anger to God. But here too, it is merely speaking of God's interaction with man. We perceive God's actions, and ascribe to Him the same emotions that we ourselves would feel if we were performing a similar act. Thus, for example, when God punishes, we say that He is "angry." None of this, however, is meant to imply any change in God Himself.

Even the creation of the universe did not change God in any way. Similarly, it did not involve any change of God's mind. It cannot be said that at a particular moment He suddenly decided to create a world. A statement such as this has no meaning, since time, and hence, the very concept of change, were among the things created by God. Therefore, both before and after creation, God was absolutely the same.

Unknowable Yet Accessible

Creation therefore did not fill any need in God's being. God is inherently perfect, and does not have any need for the universe.

In absolutely no way can it be said that God was compelled to create the world. Hence, creation was nothing less than an act of absolute altruism on the part of God.

God is called "living" because He performs acts that are normally ascribed to living things.

Our understanding of God's relationship to the world is twofold, namely, that He is both immanent and transcendental. Thus, He both fills and encompasses all creation. This duality, however, is only due to our imperfect understanding of God, since He Himself is the most absolute Unity.

This twofold concept is expressed in the song of the angels. They sing, "Holy, holy, holy is God of Hosts, the whole world is filed with His Glory" (Isaiah 6:3). This indicates that God is immanent, filling all creation. However, they also sing, "Blessed is God's Glory from His place" (Ezekiel 3:12). Here they are speaking of god in His transcendental sense, where even the highest angels cannot comprehend His "place."

This is also expressed in the Shema, which states, "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One" (Deut. 6:4). Before declaring that God is an unknowable transcendental Unity, we declare that He is "our Lord" -- accessible to us at all times. Similarly, in every blessing, before addressing God as the transcendental "King of the universe," we also call Him "our Lord." In the prayer, "Our Father, our King" (Avinu Malkenu), we likewise liken God to both an immanent Father and a transcendental King.

God's immanence implies that there is no place in all creation that is devoid of His being. He is therefore spoken of as being omnipresent. The Torah thus says, "All the earth is filled with God's Glory" (Numbers 14:21). It is likewise written, "His Glory is in heaven and earth" (Psalms 148:13).

In a number of places, the torah speaks of God as being in a certain place at a given time. This does not mean that God is in that place and not elsewhere. Rather, it means that God wishes to bestow special honor and attention to that place, or, alternatively, that His action is particularly visible there. Thus, God was said to "dwell" in the Holy Temple because He bestowed special honor and attention to this edifice. God was said to "lead" the Israelites at the Exodus because His activities were particularly visible in relation to them.

Dependent on God

Nothing can exist unless God wills it to exist. If God were to stop willing anything's existence, it would instantaneously cease to exist. God's will must therefore permeate all creation. But since God is an absolute Unity, His will must be identical with His essence. Since God's will must fill all creation, the same must also be true of His Essence.

The existence of all creation thus continuously depends on God's will and creative power. If this power were removed from creation for even an instant, all things would instantly cease to exist. It is thus written, "You have made the heaven… the earth and all that is on it… and You give life to them all" (Nehemiah 9:6). God constantly gives "Life Force" and existence to all things. In the morning prayers, we likewise say, "In His goodness, He daily renews the act of creation."

Although God's presence fills all creation, His existence is absolutely undetectable. The prophet therefore said to God, "Certainly, You are a God who hides Himself" (Isaiah 45:15). If God would reveal his true Glory, all creation would be nullified before it.

Furthermore, God cannot be seen because there is no place empty of Him. The reason is very much like the reason that the air cannot be seen; it is an integral part of our environment, and this is all the more true of God. The reason we cannot see God is not because He is too transcendental, but because He is too immanent. The only time we are aware of the air is when the wind blows. Similarly, we are only aware of God when He acts to manifest His presence. This is why the same word, ruach, denotes both wind and spirit.

Secrets of the Heart

It is a foundation of our faith to believe that God knows all our deeds as well as everything else that occurs in the universe.

God is therefore spoken of as being omniscient. He fills all creation and gives it existence, and therefore, He is aware of all that takes place in it. God thus said, "Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I will not see him?… Do I then not fill heaven and earth?" (Jeremiah 23:24). It is likewise written, "God's eyes are in every place, beholding the evil and the good" (Proverbs 15:3).

God knows man's thoughts, as it is written, "God probes every heart and perceives every urge of thought" (1-Chronicles 28:9). It is likewise written, "[God] knows the secrets of the heart" (Psalms 44:21).

Since God exists outside of time, He knows the future exactly as He knows the past. This precise concept is expressed in His words to His prophet, "I call the generations from the beginning; I, God, am the First, and with the last I am the same" (Isaiah 41:4).

No matter how great the number of simultaneous events, it is nothing for God's infinite knowledge.

God's knowledge is identical with His infinite Essence, and it is therefore also infinite. It is thus written, "[God's] understanding is infinite" (Psalms 147:5). God can therefore know what is happening to every single atom in the universe at every given instant. No matter how great the number of simultaneous events, it is nothing compared to God's infinite knowledge.

Above and beyond all this, God is so high above us that it is utterly impossible to comprehend Him in any manner whatsoever. It is thus written, "Can you by searching find out God? Can you probe the Almighty to perfection?" (Job 11:7). God's Essence transcends our very powers of thought, as He told His prophet, "My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are My ways your ways" (Isaiah 48:17).

It is thus taught, "No thought can grasp Him at all." Just as an abstract thought cannot be grasped by the physical hand, so the essence of God cannot be grasped even by thought. Even the highest spiritual beings cannot comprehend God's true essence.

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Therefore, every name and every description that we may give to God can only apply to His relationship to His creation. Even the Tetragrammaton (YHVH) which is called God's "proper name" only denotes His highest emanation in creation. God Himself, however, is absolutely unknowable, unnamable, and innominate. Words do not exist that can describe Him or tell all His praises.

Although God is incomprehensible, we know Him through our traditions of the past and our hopes in the future. We know Him though our prayers for life, health and prosperity, as well as our hopes for mankind. In the Amidah recited three times each day, we address God and say, "Blessed are You, O Lord, our God and God of our fathers; God of Abraham, God of Isaac, and God of Jacob; Great, mighty and awesome God, Highest One, Giver of love and goodness, Master of all, who remembers the love of the fathers, and brings a redeemer to their children's children, for His name's sake, with love. King, Helper, Deliverer, and Shield." This prayer expresses our most basic feelings toward God.

 

 

A tko će čitati ove plahte, ovo je samo naporno citirati.

melkior
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Poruke : 7.732
Odgovor na Re: Postoji li Bog...? 08-14-2012 14:56

melkior:
Definicija Boga jest da je On neuzrokovani uzrok, nepokrenuti Pokretač. Ne možemo razgovarati o uzrokovanju neuzrokovanog uzroka, dakle o samoj prirodi Boga kao nekoga tko je s one strane čitavog postojanja, jer je to izvan granica i mogućnosti ljudskog shvaćanja. Možemo razgovarati o tome zašto bi On uopće nešto pokrenuo i uzrokovao, ako jest. Ako nije, onda je i čitava rasprava besmislena.

 

Možemo raspravljati o funkciji Boga kao Stvoritelja, Njegovog odnosa prema stvorenim bićima, ali ali ne i o Njegovoj prirodi. Pa ipak, Njegov odnos prema stvorenim bićima proizlazi iz Njegove prirode. A opet, Njegova priroda je postojanje u vječnosti neprekinuto i neuzrokovano ičim doli Vlastitom voljom. Njegova priroda je u potpunosti usklađena s Njegovom voljom, a Njegova volja je u potpunosti usklađena s Njegovom prirodom. Zapravo, između Njegove prirode i Njegove volje stavlja se znak identičnosti, jer onakav kakav je unutra, takav je i prema van, čitavo postojanje i kreacija je samo izraz Njegove nutrine, spoznate i osmišljene u Njegovoj Svijesti, vječni Izvor svega, pa ipak, odvojen od toga svega vlastitom prirodom ne bitka, već Supstancijalnog.

melkior
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Poruke : 7.732
Odgovor na Re: Postoji li Bog...? 08-14-2012 14:58

melkior:
odvojen od toga svega vlastitom prirodom ne bitka, već Supstancijalnog.

 

Jer Supstancijalno je zapravo ono što On jest, a bitak je samo Njegova funkcija u odnosu spram svega što jest. Supstancijalno može opstati i bez bitka kao takvog, u vječnosti Samo za Sebe, ali bitak već podrazumijeva određenu akciju kojom se označava proces kreacije.

sajk88
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Muški
Registriran(a): 14.08.2012.
Poruke : 62
Odgovor na Re: Postoji li Bog...? 08-14-2012 15:01

melkior:

oldie:
pošto bog postoji, postoji i njegov uzrok...samo je pitanje što ili tko je to,to nije definirano.

 

Definicija Boga jest da je On neuzrokovani uzrok, nepokrenuti Pokretač. Ne možemo razgovarati o uzrokovanju neuzrokovanog uzroka, dakle o samoj prirodi Boga kao nekoga tko je s one strane čitavog postojanja, jer je to izvan granica i mogućnosti ljudskog shvaćanja. Možemo razgovarati o tome zašto bi On uopće nešto pokrenuo i uzrokovao, ako jest. Ako nije, onda je i čitava rasprava besmislena.

To nije bit pitanja. Može biti bilo kakva definicija Boga, može biti magični nevidljivi sendvić od šunke i sira, ali kako stvarno ZNATI da je on neuzrokovani uzrok odnosno nepokrenuti pokretač? Koji su dokazi za to da je?

Ako to vrijedi za Boga, zašto to nebi vrijedilo i za sami Veliki prasak, zašto on nije mogao biti neuzrokovani uzrok.?

Također, ako to je uistinu izvan granica ljudskog shvaćanja, kako onda možeš znati da to je istina?

 

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